Yet another *HEY* taking up your space...

[McStooge]

This is my second post here at CoderForums. Just want you all to know that I'm a newb when it comes to programming and that any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'm starting to learn to code in Python...have some VB in my pocket...know some HTML...can write *basic* like there's no tomorrow...

I hope to get into InfoSec one day and coding seems to be a huge chunk of that sector so I guess I better start young (I'm 14).

...This section must have been the biggest mistake because all that you get is people saying *hey* and then stating what their ambitions are. Well, I always have been one to follow the crowd...

[DNAunion2000]

Hey McStooge! If you can already program basic like there's no tomorrow, and you already have some VB in your pocket, maybe you should dive headfirst into VB .NET. With .NET, Visual Basic has become a real progamming language with full capabilities, including full OOP capabilities (encapsulation, inheritance, polymorphism). And making a web form is just about as easy as making a windows form.

[McStooge]

I though of trying out .NET but the replies that I got from people on other forums was a big :thumbdown

I might give it a try (I think that you can download the complete .NET application and try it out for a few hours of something) but I really don't know what to expect.

Does it use the same syntax as VB6? What is the language made to do?

Any real information would be appreciated. For now...I'll keep with Python and maybe check out some info on .NET

Thanks for the suggestion though...

[DNAunion2000]

.NET is definitely the way to go for Windows programming. And since something like 90% of PCs, and a good percent of web servers, run Windows it is a huge market.

Also, .NET is not completely restricted to Windows as some might be mislead to believe. That is, you can create a .NET web service and non-Windows clients can be consumers. Why? Because .NET web services communicate across the Net using standard protocols, like http, XML, and SOAP. So your own web server would be all that needed to run Windows: the rest of the world that your service is exposed to could be any platform that can handle http, XML, and SOAP, which is "all" of them.

If you want to get an overview of what .NET is, there's a book by Platt called something like "Introducing .NET" which can be read in just a few days. A beginner might not get it all, but if you have questions I am sure someone would be willing to help out.

What specifically is the single most damning complaint about .NET you've heard?

[McStooge]

The first complaint I get from the forums I hang out in (www.securityforums.com, the www.hackers.com BBS) is that it was made by M$ and thus cannot be accepted by the computer security community. I personally disagree with these claims as I find Windows to be a perfectly stable platform that I use for gaming or just casual computing.

Other negative things I hear about .NET is that it only conforms to Windows platforms (which could be false, as you just mentioned), that the code can be bloated and somewhat hard to understand, and that you don't get results fast, like with PERL or Python.

I still have another question for you...what kind of programs does .NET programming churn out? Is it geared towards web development or casual programs that you can easily use at home?

Thanks for the input as it is a great help! :D

[DNAunion2000]

The first complaint I get from the forums I hang out in (www.securityforums.com, the www.hackers.com BBS) is that it was made by M$ and thus cannot be accepted by the computer security community. I personally disagree with these claims as I find Windows to be a perfectly stable platform that I use for gaming or just casual computing.

I'm no expert on security, but Windows itself isn't all that bad (though I've too heard that it is more susceptible to attack that are other OS's, like Linux); MS's main secutiry problem is their web server, IIS. And if you are going to do web development with .NET you'll need to use IIS.

Other negative things I hear about .NET is that it only conforms to Windows platforms (which could be false, as you just mentioned),

Well, the actual running of a .NET application is confined to Windows at this point. But the client-server architecture of the web makes this virtually irrelevant: the web is platform independent in that servers can run any platform they want as long as they are accessible from clients of various platforms. For example, you don't have to log onto to a Linux version of this site if you run Linux, etc.

that the code can be bloated

I would need more detail. It might be a legitimate claim but it might also be an intentional decision by MS: a tradeoff that they consider the pros to outweigh the cons.

and somewhat hard to understand

I don't see that, at least not in VB .NET and C# .NET. I don't see .NET as more confusing than object-orientation in general. In fact, it simplifies some things such as dynamic memory management.

Their comments might be influenced by unfamiliarity. French is very hard for me, because I've been speaking English all my life. If I were raised in France instead of the US I bet I'd find French quite simple.

and that you don't get results fast, like with PERL or Python.

I can't judge because I don't know PERL or Python. But again, I don't see .NET slowing down the creation of solutions.

I still have another question for you...what kind of programs does .NET programming churn out? Is it geared towards web development or casual programs that you can easily use at home?

You can create simple (or complex) console applications, Windows forms applications, and web forms applications.

Making a web form is only slightly more involved than making a windows form. Most of it is the same: you open a new form in design mode, drag a few controls onto it, and write the code that lies behind the form and handles the events. Maintaining state is the main difference, but doesn't seem to be that difficult.


******************

You have to keep in mind a couple of things when reading negative comments about .NET.

First, just as in other aspects of life, their is strong brand loyalty in all aspects of computers. Some people won't drink anything but Coke, and you simply can't convince them that Pepsi is any good. Same with VB vs. C++ and other such comparisons.

Second, many computer professionals have a strong anti-MS bias that influences their remarks. They hate Microsoft's monopolozing most everything they get their hands on and thumbing their nose at the government. But .NET just looks like a great idea to me, no matter who makes it.

[McStooge]

Thank for those points...they were extremely helpful.

I've decided to do a bit of .NET on the side as I concentrate on Python. Although I prefer if it were portable throught multiple OS's, I can live with just fooling around with on my windows computers.

I'm no expert on security, but Windows itself isn't all that bad

I don't want to get into a battle or anything but it is true that a Windows box that has not been secured is much more vulnerable than any other OS's box that has not been secure. Although the *NIX systems probably have a large number of holes as well, these have not been exploited because all the hackers, crackers, and wannabes love Linux and UNIX and thus only targert M$ products. As with anything, there is a large number of people that would love to see the guy at the top (in this case M$) come crashing down and that's why everyone targets M$ and their products.

Thanks for the great advice and information as it has really helped!

[DNAunion2000]

...there is a large number of people that would love to see the guy at the top (in this case M$) come crashing down and that's why everyone targets M$ and their products.

I'm one of them. I've stated on the net before (somewhere besides here) that I hate the way Microsoft ends up monopolozing everything it touches. Anyone remember dBase? Anyone remember Lotus 1-2-3? Anyone remember WordPerfect? Anyone remember Novel? Anyone remember Netscape? Anyone remember Borland? These all used to be the clear leaders in their respective markets...until Microsoft decided to go into this and that business. Now the others are either gone or are clinging on for dear life. And the future doesn't look promising either: Microsoft will likely maintain its stranglehold and probably even expand into other arenas, such as gaming (Xbox). I'd like to see Microsoft fall, in the sense of there once again being competition and many vendors with large shares in the various markets.

But I still think .NET is a good idea.

[WinterNight]

hey man nice to meet you, im 14 also :D

[WinterNight]

im learning python as well, hope to see you around the forums

[DNAunion2000]

DNAunion: What specifically is the single most damning complaint about .NET you've heard?

McStooge: The first complaint I get from the forums I hang out in (www.securityforums.com, the www.hackers.com BBS) is that it was made by M$ and thus cannot be accepted by the computer security community. I personally disagree with these claims as I find Windows to be a perfectly stable platform that I use for gaming or just casual computing.


DNAunion: I'm no expert on security, but Windows itself isn't all that bad (though I've too heard that it is more susceptible to attack that are other OS's, like Linux); MS's main secutiry problem is their web server, IIS. And if you are going to do web development with .NET you'll need to use IIS.

I just happened to pick up a book I haven’t read for a while and came across this…

”Since 1999, a new serious remote exploit in IIS has been found about once per month. Although Microsoft has always quickly released patches, there’s inevitably a few days of vulnerability between the appearance of the attack and the availability of a patch.

Apache has fared much better, with an order of magnitude fewer serious problems, but Linux, the host operating system usually used under Apache, has been exploited more than Windows 2000, the host OS under IIS, in that same time period.” (Matthew Strebe, Network Security Jumpstart, Sybex, 2002, p255)

[kryptech.net]

Man everyon's 14(this does not apply to the non 14's out there or those who dont know assembly)

[sirking]

lol, Im 14 too